To-The-Trade Episode Summary
Karen Laos was six years old when her dad handed her a few dollars at a flea market and said, go have fun, but never pay full price. That one instruction became the foundation of a 25-year communication career. It is also the thing most interior designers are missing in the five seconds after they say a number out loud.
Karen Laos joins Laurie Laizure on To-The-Trade for Interior Design Community to talk about what actually happens in those five seconds. Karen is a communication coach and speaker who has worked with NASA, Google, and other large brands. She left a long corporate career in 2019 with a specific mission: help 10 million women overcome self-doubt and communicate with confidence within 10 years. She is roughly 5 million in, and the plan is to celebrate reaching that mark at Chase Center in San Francisco in 2030.
Karen could command a stage in front of a room at NASA and still lose her voice in a boardroom. In one meeting, she could not get the words out, and her boss shut it down. Afterward, her boss pulled her aside and said, Karen, you didn’t trust your gut. You could have just tabled the meeting. Two things hit Karen at once. She had no idea tabling was an option. And more importantly: why do I keep asking for permission?
She traces the split back to her childhood. Her father taught her to negotiate and to believe her ideas were good. Her mother, a powerhouse in the community who ran organizations and won awards, deferred at home. Karen ended up confident asking when she was producing value for someone else, and far less confident asking on her own behalf. Years later, through therapy, she realized the female company president sitting across from her in that boardroom was an archetype of her father. The intimidation was situational, not a permanent trait. That distinction matters, because situational things can be prepared for.
Laurie points out that designers live in the same dynamic on a different set. She is often the only woman on a build site standing among contractors, architects, the tile installer, and the painter. How an idea lands in that room is not always about the idea.
The most useful sequence in the episode is a live negotiation Karen ran while standing in the loading dock of a building. An HR contact called and asked for her rate. Karen gave it. Long pause. Karen waited, and let the silence do the work. Then she asked one of her favorite questions: how does that land with you? The answer came back honestly. That is significantly higher than the other coaches we have been looking at.
I recognize that I’m higher than most. Is that a deal breaker?
Karen Laos
It was not a deal breaker. They moved forward. Karen had never used that line before, and describes it as the moment she started owning her value out loud instead of pre-discounting to avoid discomfort. Any designer who has sent an invoice and then rushed to fill the silence with an apology will recognize the pattern.
Karen recently set a new speaking minimum. A training company she subcontracts with came back and asked her to accept less. In the past she would have said okay. This time she said no, and walked away from $3,500 and a paid trip she would have enjoyed. Her reasoning was simple: what is my word worth if I set a minimum and then negotiate against myself? Within days, she met someone on a plane and is now in conversation on a six-figure contract.
Her framing is that your rate is a decision, not a feeling you wait to have. The hard part is the trapeze gap between letting go of one bar and catching the next. Laurie names the fear directly: that the next bar never comes.
Laurie also supplies the operational half of the answer. Reverse-engineer the number. Salary, rent, overhead, team, business insurance, retirement. Once you know what the business actually requires to run, the projects that do not fit stop being emotional decisions and start being math. Designers routinely say yes because they love the house, like the client, or feel sorry for the client. None of those are line items. For more on that side of the equation, see IDC’s Pricing and Profitability resources.
Laurie raises the scenario designers fight most often. The invoice goes out, the client reverse-images a chair, and it turns up $200 cheaper on a retail site. Designers build margin on product after the design fee is spent. They hold trade accounts with minimums as high as $20,000. They manage receiving, damage inspection, storage, and delivery that a retail listing does not.
Karen’s answer is not a comeback line. It is a proactive conversation. Decide first what you are available for, then set the parameter at the start of the engagement, before it becomes a confrontation. Something to the effect of: a lot of people are tempted to price-check online, so let me be upfront about how I price and why. Naming it early removes the awkward backtrack later.
Karen stays practical throughout. How does that land with you, and how is this resonating? Both break up a monologue and get an honest read. Just curious and help me understand are low-friction openers. Where would you like to go from here? Takes the pressure off when you are not sure where a conversation should go next. That doesn’t work for me, and I’m not available for that. Are those the sentences she thinks every woman should practice without apology? Excuse me, or thank you for your patience, replaces the reflexive sorry.
She also flags the language that quietly costs credibility: I think, maybe, kind of, does that make sense, you know what I mean. She cites a stat that roughly 49% of adults identify as people-pleasers, and it shows up in the wording. Her lowest-cost recommendation is to record yourself on a Zoom or Teams call and listen back. Most people never do it. Most people are surprised.
Learn more about Karen at karenlaos.com and on Instagram at @karenlaosofficial.
Timestamp Guide
00:00 Welcome, and the flea market lesson: never pay full price
03:05 Being the only woman across the table, in boardrooms and on job sites
05:18 Have a strategy before you walk in, not after
06:34 The balance of warmth and assertiveness
08:48 Four years on the road, and learning to pivot on a dime
12:07 Fall on your sword, and using AI to take the heat out of an email
13:29 Why designers catastrophize every client email
16:36 You didn’t trust your gut: the moment she stopped asking permission
19:20 Leaving in 2019 with a 10 million woman mission
20:30 The loading dock negotiation and the pause that paid
21:40 I recognize that I’m higher than most. Is that a deal breaker?
25:45 Holding a new minimum, and better is on its way
29:58 Reverse-engineering the numbers so projects stop being emotional
35:14 Just curious, help me understand, and the power of the pause
41:24 Minimizing language, and recording yourself to hear it
44:07 Being shopped: reverse image search and lost margin
46:29 What am I available for, and setting the parameter proactively
49:49 Lightning round: sorry, silence, and the best advice she ever got
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